Curse

Fatali · Nov 14, 2006, 06:57 AM // 06:57

So, my guild has begun diving into GvG within the past couple months, and we are still reletively new at it.

We are all decent players, but we just need more practice with GvG as a whole to get better.

So my question to you is, what are your thoughts on the type of build that we should stick with and learn from?

Is the standard 2 War, 2 Mes, 2 Ele, 2 Monk build generally the best to learn on, or at least something similar? Would changing things around and adding things such as, say, a paragon and/or ritualist, in fact decrease our ability to learn GvG as a whole because it is not an extremely standard build?

Basically my main question is, should we stick with a balanced build to start out with, and not deviate too far at all from it, and what should we limit ourselves to in terms of moving away from the standard balanced build?

I ask this because we are trying to nail down the build that we want to stay with for the next few months, and I don't want us to stick with a build that could possibly limit our learning of GvG and builds as a whole. (As an extreme example, starting out playing only blood spike of course makes it difficult to learn to play most other balanced builds.)

Thank you for your time.

Thom Bangalter · Nov 14, 2006, 07:14 AM // 07:14

Any build sans spike will help show you the ropes on positioning/target calling/extension/gank control/ganking/kiting+prekiting etc.

Clusmas · Nov 14, 2006, 08:30 AM // 08:30

Yeah..

You pretty much have the right advice in your own post :S

Wasteland Squidget · Nov 14, 2006, 09:08 AM // 09:08

To a lot of people, 2 war 2 mes 2 E/Mo 2 monk is the pinnacle of a balanced build for new players. I disagree, since multiple eles and reliance on disruption make it a difficult build to pressure with and most newer players just end up using it for adreno-spike. 321spiking isn't going to teach you much, and trying to outpressure a Searing Flames team with that build is going to be frustrating. If you're willing to take the frustration it can be a good build to learn disruptive play on, but it might be better to start with something simpler.

The Motivation paragon will give you a strong defense, so much that I wouldn't recommend using one at first. You need to learn how to mitigate damage on all of your characters through kiting and disruption, and a paragon-powered defense will make all of that irrelevant. I'd say focus either on a heavy pressure or heavy split build to begin with - using a heavy pressure build you'll learn how to disrupt with damage, while a heavy split will force you to learn the GvG maps and VoD/ganking tactics.

Seamus Finn · Nov 14, 2006, 09:10 AM // 09:10

I would say the build you suggest, given good bars, is a classic balanced build. However, I see one big black line between two ways of gvging: The pure spike and everyhting else(pressure, adren spike etc). If you are new to gvg, you may want something thats easy to use likes searing flames and thumps as you can have success and get a good idea of the basics of the gvg system. Running a good war vs a thump is a different story but thump is a good way to start I suppose... Anyhow, my main advice if you want to learn how to gvg and become better players is to NOT RUN PURE SPIKE and fit people into roles they want to play. Don't make someone who wants to play ritualist(hypothetical I know) run a mesmer just because it isn't in the standard balanced. Lots can work so at least stay a happy guild while you learn the ropes. When I first started I hated having to play a class cause no one else wanted to and we just HAD to run it. Hope that helps.

Ok so I posted and realized that Squidget covered a lot of what I was saying. So in hopes of adding new content -- your map selection is somewhat important as well. By picking a catapult map, for example, you can learn how much it can change a game. Also, a lot of the catty maps are nearly identical. I hate them personally, but my first guild used one and the experience came in handy.

Fatali · Nov 14, 2006, 09:47 AM // 09:47

Thanks all for the suggestions. I'd kind of be hesitant for us to do a Searing Flames/Thumper build though because like I said in my original post, we've already been GvGing a bit for a couple months now so we know the basics and a decent amount in general of GvG.. and our main focus isn't really winning at this point, either.. we just want to learn as many specifics and such as we can now. But I don't know if a Searing Flames build would help us too much in teaching us more specifics on balanced builds and such.

Doing a more heavy pressure or split build sounds appealing, though. I may suggest that to my guildies.

Kabale · Nov 14, 2006, 10:15 AM // 10:15

Contrary to Wasteland's suggestion, I believe you should include a Paragon in your build, because more often than not, you'll find yourself losing against teams that did bring one (perhaps even two). And losing is not the best way to keep your guildies interested in GvG. Run something that has been proven to work successfully in this season, just look at observer mode and see what's beating what with some consistency.

I believe that if you are new to GvG, no matter what build you run (within reason, something completely imba isn't going to teach you much), you will always pick up on things like damage mitigation, flag control, ganking, etc. If you don't, well, you lose anyway

Quote:

Doing a more heavy pressure or split build sounds appealing

Beware of running heavy pressure, as in the current metagame it is very difficult to pressure monks out of energy.

Split builds on the other hand are still as potent as ever, but difficult to run nonetheless. Good luck.

Wasteland Squidget · Nov 14, 2006, 10:23 AM // 10:23

Playing with a defensive paragon will help you win more games. Playing without one will help you learn faster. The choice is yours.

I'd agree that split builds are probably the better choice at the moment though.

Fatali · Nov 14, 2006, 10:48 AM // 10:48

Yeah at this point learning is much more important to all of us than winning every game. Thankfully we don't have to worry about losing members from losing games while we are learning, they are all dedicated enough.

I think we'll spend a couple more weeks trying out some builds that are geared more towards the suggestions you guys have posted, like splitting, and more pressure, and see what we like/what we feel most comfortable with, and then decide what build we want to stick with, and stay with it until we improve a lot more.

Thanks a lot everyone.

Kabale · Nov 14, 2006, 02:30 PM // 14:30

Quote:

Playing without one will help you learn faster.

You'll be learning different things though either way, and both relatively fast too.

For example, taking the Paragon route, you'll have all the energy in the world to actually use all your skills as much as possible, which gives you experience with the role you are playing, whereas you won't be learning much about energy management. It basically lets you forget about an important factor while learning to do another faster.

Of course, you'll have a harder time later when you do have to worry about conserving energy, but then you can deal with that seperately instead of worrying about it while trying to actually play your role.

0mar · Nov 14, 2006, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Basically, shy away from one-trick builds like Bspike, Air Spike, Rspike. They are good builds, but they don't really teach you how to play GvG. GvG is really about position and map control, and a spike build can get you both, but vs a good team, you'll be left clutching your dick wondering what happened.

Stealth Rider · Nov 14, 2006, 09:46 PM // 21:46

IMO, play a build with a Cripshot, War and flagger (ele or me/A) able to split. This type of build will allow you to focus more on outplaying teams, and capitalizing on their mistakes, rather than pure build power. Practice with your caller(s), let thme get better at knowing when they can afford to split a character, and when your split needs help. Practice with different situations, and try to get the same people playing the split chars. Theyll work better together than if someone takes one of their places.

Most importantly, try and keep splitting proactively instead of reactively, as it will be much more effective for this type of build.

Shortyafter · Nov 14, 2006, 09:52 PM // 21:52

I personally prefer the 2 war 2 mes 2 ele 2 mo template, but dropping out a mes or an ele for a crip, paragon, or something doesn't really change the concept. The traditional balanced build is a good learning tool because you can do just about anything with it. It's very likely that you'll start off by just adren spiking every 20 seconds, and nothing more. However, when you lose a match, analyze what tools your build has and/or what tactics you could've used to win. Maybe you could've sent a warrior off to kill NPCs, maybe you should've diverted their E/Mo more, maybe you should've pressured their mesmers between spikes, etc.

While a balanced build doesn't excel at any one area, it has the ability to do everything. It can help you get a feel for all aspects of GvG, and help you identify your guilds strong points. If you end up splitting off a warrior every match, you many want to run to a dedicated split build. If you're warriors are good at applying pressure to their backline, you may want to run a warrior pressure build (although as said, the effectiveness of these builds has been reduced). As Squidget said, you can also begin by using heavily specialized builds and getting good at one aspect at a time. While I personally don't prefer this method, I think it works fine.

The number one thing, in my opinion, is to run a build that you know works. Basically, copy it from a top 10 guild on obs mode. Don't just copy their bars, copy their playstyle too. Also be sure that the build you're copying isn't just a build the guild is testing, as a lot of top guilds are still testing new things at the moment. Once you have a solid build, you can begin to blame losses on players, not on the build.

moriz · Nov 14, 2006, 09:55 PM // 21:55

since your guild appears to use a core group of gvger's, you'll benefit from playing the standard balanced build. if you do not have a core group, the only thing the build will teach you is how much you suck. having your entire team on the same page skill-wise is important. balanced builds will perform at the level of its worst player, which is really no fun if your teammates are not of equal skill.

Phelann · Nov 15, 2006, 12:12 AM // 00:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Playing with a defensive paragon will help you win more games. Playing without one will help you learn faster. The choice is yours.

I'd agree that split builds are probably the better choice at the moment though.

Playing without a paragon at this point is just shooting yourself in the foot. Thats like playing without heal party to make things more challenging so you get better faster.

IMO original poster you are on the right track. Copy the clain detained/celebrities setup and your set. But dont just adreneline spike because if you don't learn to pressure you are screwed.

Aejorii · Nov 20, 2006, 06:32 PM // 18:32

I think pressure can be given with good ole Genericway (2war, 2mes, 2monk, 2ele) back when it was only prophecies, but they're pretty much outdated right now. However, I did learn a good part of the game with the build back then and it was bloody flexible at the time.

edit: Okay I take it back. New NF skills lets this build breath again.

Thom Bangalter · Nov 21, 2006, 11:10 AM // 11:10

To be honest, and after thinking this over, The 2 warrior, 2 mes, 2 monk, 2 ele build is perfectly strong. Only now one of those warriors is possibly a dervish or they're both thumpers, both mesmers have spiritual pain, the monks have an assassin secondary, and one ele spams searing flames while the other runs flags. for some reason I thought this was a year ago and it was hammer+axe+dual surges+blind bot at the stand+dual boon prots+air runner.

Anyway, playing balanced on the ladder makes you a semi-competent player. As others have noted, find the role you like and get good. Ask questions about play technique on the forums (use search first please). Find like-minded players and play with them (perhaps an alliance to scrimmage with as well).

I noted this elsewhere, but use observer to see what you could do better. Above all though, have fun. It's just a game.

JR · Nov 21, 2006, 11:18 AM // 11:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phelann

IMO original poster you are on the right track. Copy the clain detained/celebrities setup and your set. But dont just adreneline spike because if you don't learn to pressure you are screwed.

Agreed. As much as some people like to rant about "Eurospike", the best of the guilds running the current standard adren spike builds also have a great deal of pressure. You do not get kills purely from well coordnated spikes, but from pressuring the opposition heavily which makes your actual spikes far less obvious - if not a bit weaker, and more importantly drains their Monks.

The Silver Star · Nov 21, 2006, 11:58 AM // 11:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Agreed. As much as some people like to rant about "Eurospike", the best of the guilds running the current standard adren spike builds also have a great deal of pressure. You do not get kills purely from well coordnated spikes, but from pressuring the opposition heavily which makes your actual spikes far less obvious - if not a bit weaker, and more importantly drains their Monks.

That is the beauty of an adren spike. The ability of constant pressure and spikes is they key to success. The constant pressure from spiking even if it is not killing will eventually break them

Program Ftw · Nov 24, 2006, 11:57 AM // 11:57

Watch observer lots, mainly for top guilds, see how they play.
I'm not suggesting you steal someone's build, but in GvG tactics and playstyle normally will help you more than you're build.

Thanks,
Program~